The week is long. The silver cat feeds when blue meets yellow in the west. A trip to China sounds nice if you tread lightly.

Remind me again what this means. I know it has something to do with the mall. At a time (the clock hands) something happens at some of the stores, but I don't know the rest of the details.

What do you think about Steve's Fate in ST5?

#StrangerThings

Written before the premiere of Season 5: This post is to discuss my speculations about the truth of the Upside Down from watching Stranger Things over the years, and to see if I got anything right once Season 5 comes out.

Although Stranger Things isn’t a traditional thriller or mystery drama but rather an inspiring story about love and growth,discussions about the truth of the Upside Down have never stopped online since the show’s debut.

From Season 1 to Season 4, I’ve come up with countless explanations, but two theories have consumed the most brainpower.

These two theories took me on a long mental journey: confidently thinking I’d cracked the truth → getting brutally debunked by new plot developments → trying to patch up the flaws but finding more holes → realizing the theory might not hold up → starting over with a new approach. By the end, I was mentally exhausted.

Now, I’m writing them down to share how I gradually drove myself crazy…

The article is kind of long, and I am a foreign fan, please forgive me if I make some grammar or spelling mistakes.

(1) Multiverse Theory, Credibility: ★★★

Before Season 4 aired, my view of the Upside Down was as follows:The Upside Down is essentially a parallel universe similar to the “Rightside Up” world.

Like the parallel world in the show Fringe, it’s inhabited by another group of humans identical to those in our main world.

The Upside Down once had a normal human civilization, just like the Rightside Up (or rather, an identical human civilization).

However, disaster struck one day when this world was invaded by dark creatures from a higher dimension.

All living people were killed (or turned into some kind of meatball by the mindflayer…).

The sky was covered with black matter, turning it into a paradise for dark creatures.

This explains why, in the first three seasons, the Upside Down’s Hawkins looked identical to the Rightside Up’s Hawkins but had no living people because it was occupied by those dark creatures.

But after Season 4 aired, this theory was shattered…

The reason is that when Eleven first opened the gate in November 1979, the Upside Down was a chaotic, primordial wasteland, not the mirror universe resembling the Rightside Up.

But by 1983, the Upside Down had transformed into the appearance of the Rightside Up’s Hawkins, frozen in time on November 6, 1983.

This sudden change caught me off guard. No matter how perfect my previous theory was, the writers could kill it with a single stroke.

But I wasn’t ready to give up on this theory. I wanted to make a final, desperate attempt to salvage it, so I had to confront two fatal issues raised by Season 4:

1. Why did the Upside Down initially look like a primordial Earth wasteland but later transform into the appearance of Rightside Up Hawkins?

2. Why is the Upside Down’s time frozen on November 6, 1983?

After days of thinking, I came up with an even more terrifying possibility…

Could it be possible that there isn’t just one Upside Down-like parallel universe, but multiple ones?

Could it be that the Upside Down Eleven sent Vecna to in Season 4 isn’t the same Upside Down that Will was taken to in Season 1?

Fans of DC, Marvel, or Rick and Morty should be very familiar with the concept of multiple parallel universes. With this hypothesis, let’s start reasoning about the relationship between the Rightside Up and the Upside Down.

There are countless parallel universes in existence.The main universe where the protagonists live, let’s call it Universe A.

Beyond Universe A, there exists a mirror universe very similar to Universe A, which we’ll call it as Universe B.

Both Universe A and Universe B are normal worlds with human civilizations and living people.

In 1979, Eleven and Vecna engaged in a psychic showdown in Hawkins Lab in Universe A.

Ultimately, Vecna was defeated, and Eleven opened a gate, sending him to a chaotic, primordial dark universe…

This dark universe, let’s call it Universe X.

Universe X is a universe completely different from Universe A and Universe B.There’s no human civilization here, only sky-obscuring black spores, terrifying red lightning striking from above, disgusting monsters roaming barren rocky landscapes, and the physical laws seem somewhat different (with massive floating debris in the sky).

Clearly, this is a highly fantastical universe. Vecna used his powers to tame the creatures here and created spider-like mindflayer to serve him. Then, he worked diligently here, searching for a way back to Universe A (to take revenge on Eleven).

After years of practice, Vecna finally found a way to open gates to other universes.But in the vast, infinite multiverse, Vecna got lost…

He didn’t find Universe A but instead found Universe B, which is very similar to Universe A.

Then, through the sacrifice of four victims (just like Season 4), he successfully established a connection between Universe X and Universe B.What happened next should be easy to imagine.

Vecna led an army of dark creatures from Universe X to invade Hawkins in Universe B, killing all the living people and completely taking over,

turning Universe B from this:

To this:

That day was November 6, 1983.

On the same day Universe B fell, Dr. Brenner (Papa) in Universe A forced Eleven to use her powers to explore other parallel universes, and during her psychic “astral projection,” she ran straight into Vecna’s monsters!

Under the pressure of fear, Eleven’s powers went out of control, accidentally opening a gate between Universe A and the Vecna-occupied Universe B, letting the monsters through! (Vecna: “I was looking for you, and you came to me!”)

The monsters then rushed from Universe B into Universe A, kidnapped Will, and took him to Universe B, kicking off the story of Season 1.

Can you grasp the core of this theory? To summarize:

In Seasons 1 and 4, the Upside Down that the protagonists entered is actually the Vecna-occupied Universe B, not the Universe X where Eleven sent Vecna in 1979.

Will, Joyce, and Hopper visited Universe B in Season 1, and the teens visited it again in Season 4, but none of them have been to Universe X.

Vecna initially couldn’t find Universe A, but Eleven’s psychic experiments on November 6, 1983, inadvertently revealed Universe A’s “coordinates,” allowing Vecna to focus on invading Universe A later.

Universe B was conquered by Vecna on November 6, 1983, with all living people in Hawkins disappearing, and human activity frozen on that day. This explains why Nancy’s diary in Season 4 was stuck on November 6, 1983.

Another point: when Vecna invaded Nancy’s mind, she saw Hawkins being destroyed by Vecna. I think Vecna might have replayed his memories of destroying Hawkins in Universe B for her.

Sounds kind of plausible, right? But upon closer inspection, I realized this theory has many issues.

The first issue: the timeline feels too rushed…

Nancy in Universe B wrote her last diary entry on November 6, 1983, and then vanished.Diaries are usually written at night, meaning Universe B was still fine during the day on November 6.

This suggests Vecna’s invasion of Universe B began at night, but Will in Universe A was taken to Universe B by a Demogorgon between 8 and 9 p.m. According to Will’s later recollections, Universe B was already a ravaged, dark world with no living people by then…

Let’s assume Nancy wrote her diary at 6 p.m., and Vecna launched his invasion right after. By 8–9 p.m., when Will arrived in Universe B, everything was already over…

If Universe A and Universe B’s timelines are synchronized, Vecna’s destruction of Universe B’s Hawkins was absurdly fast. In less than 2–3 hours, or even less, he killed every living person in Universe B’s Hawkins, covered the city in vines, and left no bodies behind…

This is completely different from the invasion of Universe A in Season 4. In the Season 4 finale, after Universe A was invaded, it took 2–3 days for the Upside Down’s dark matter to slowly encroach on Hawkins, a significantly slower pace.

After much thought, I came up with two possible explanations:

First: Vecna was severely injured by the teens’ Molotov cocktails and shotgun attacks, greatly diminishing his power, slowing down his invasion of Universe A significantly.

Second: Vecna didn’t complete the sacrifice of all his victims, as Max was barely alive, so the barrier between Universe A and the Upside Down wasn’t fully broken. In other words, Max’s fragile life is Universe A’s last line of defense.

This plot hole could barely be patched, but I soon realized this theory has another massive, unexplainable plot hole:

In Season 1, how did Will communicate with Joyce through the Christmas lights?

Since human activity in Universe B stopped on November 6, 1983,Will shouldn’t have been able to see the Christmas lights Joyce hung up after November 6 in Universe B, let alone the letters written beneath them.

This left me utterly baffled…

I asked a lot of people, and someone told me that there’s an official Stranger Things comic that details Will’s experiences in the Upside Down. It was my first time hearing about an official Stranger Things comic, and I was thrilled, so I rushed to read the comic, only to be utterly shocked…

You see, this is the official answer. The panels show what Will experienced in the Upside Down when he and Joyce communicated via the Christmas lights in Season 1.

At the time, Will was struggling, unsure how to communicate with his mom, and in the next second, the words Joyce wrote on the Rightside Up’s wall magically appeared on the Upside Down’s wall…

WHAT HECK IS THE LOGIC BEHIND THIS????

Then Will traced the letters on the wall with his hand, successfully lighting up the Christmas lights Joyce hung in the other world…

By the way, here’s a key detail not shown in the TV series:

According to the comic, Will wasn’t dragged through a gate to the Upside Down like Vecna was. Instead, like in anime Re:Zero, he travelled to the upside down in the blink of an eye…

Regarding how Will and Joyce communicated via the Christmas lights, this darn comic not only failed to answer my questions but raised even more…

Why did the words Joyce wrote in the Rightside Up appear in the Upside Down? And they appeared out of nowhere…

Can anything other than electrical devices directly cause physical interactions between the Rightside Up and the Upside Down?

Why didn’t anyone else in the group ever experience the physical changes Will saw?

I couldn’t help but feel an urge to strangle the comic writer and the Duffer Brothers…

I patched one hole, only for new ones to appear. The more I thought about it, the more flaws I found.

In the end, I despairingly realized that the Multiverse Theory, which I’d been refining since Season 1 aired, might not be the correct answer.

Honestly, the sense of defeat was overwhelming…

But at this point, I had no choice but to take a new approach and start building a completely new theory.

After a long mental struggle, I developed a second theory: the Universe Overlap Theory.

(2) Universe Overlap Theory, Credibility: ★★★★★

This theory is relatively simpler. Imagine the Rightside Up as a sheet of paper filled with neatly written information.The information on this paper is very organized, including the geography of Earth and the cities built by humans in our world.

The Upside Down, on the other hand, is like carbon copy paper. Compared to the orderly information on the Rightside Up’s paper, this copy paper is scribbled with chaotic, primitive information, utterly disorganized.

When the gate was first opened in November 1979, the primordial Upside Down that Vecna was sent to was the initial state of this copy paper—dark, chaotic, and devoid of human civilization.

At that time, the two worlds looked vastly different because when Eleven first opened the gate, they were very far apart and didn’t affect each other.

In 1983, when Will crossed into the Upside Down, the two previously distant worlds collided and overlapped.

You can think of it as two sheets of paper being stacked together, with the Upside Down’s copy paper being imprinted with some of the information from the Rightside Up’s paper.

As a result, the Upside Down took on the appearance of Will’s Hawkins. In other words, the closer the two worlds are, the more the Upside Down resembles the Rightside Up.

And Will is the one who caused the two Universes to overlap, which might explain why Vecna is so interested in him.

You see, Vecna was also forcibly sent to the Upside Down by Eleven, but his crossing was just a personal journey and didn’t cause the two worlds to overlap.

Imagine Vecna as a tiny drop of ink on the Rightside Up’s paper. Eleven’s powers merely peeled this drop off and flicked it onto the Upside Down’s paper with a splat.

Eleven and Vecna can open a gate between the two worlds, allowing matter to pass between them—like a few drops of ink moving between the two sheets—but that’s it.

Will, however, can directly cause the two worlds to overlap, making the two sheets stick together and imprinting the Rightside Up’s appearance onto the Upside Down.

What a terrifying ability… Vecna must be very interested in it, and this explains a lot of things.

The overlap happened on November 6, 1983, when Will crossed over, so the Upside Down was imprinted with Hawkins’ appearance from that day. Nancy’s diary also stopped on that day.

In Season 2, Vecna kept trying to control Will, likely wanting to use Will’s unique ability to overlap worlds to quickly achieve his goal of invading the Rightside Up.

Think about it: Will was the first person to observe the dark version of Hawkins in the Upside Down. Before him, neither Eleven nor Vecna saw the Upside Down as Hawkins, further proving that Will is the one who transformed it into dark Hawkins.

When Will was trapped alone in the Upside Down, when he was in his living room, frustrated by his inability to communicate with his mother,his superpower activated again! The two worlds overlapped once more because of him!

The Upside Down took on the Rightside Up’s appearance, causing the words his mother wrote on the Rightside Up’s wall to appear out of nowhere on the Upside Down’s wall!

I guess Will’s ability has some limitations. For example, in the scene where he and his mom communicated via the Christmas lights, he only caused the overlap in his house’s room. Other parts of the Upside Down weren’t affected, so beyond his house, the Upside Down remained as it was on November 6.

After Season 1, Will’s physical body never returned to the Upside Down, so we can infer that the two universes didn’t overlap again in the following years, and the Upside Down stayed frozen on November 6.

Similarly, I think when Will first crossed over, his ability only covered Hawkins, altering a small part of the Upside Down, not copy-pasting the entire Earth from the Rightside Up.

The above is the hypothesis under the World Overlap Theory that Will’s superpower reshaped the Upside Down’s appearance.

However, the World Overlap Theory itself can lead to another hypothesis, which I call the “Interstice Universe Theory.” or alternatively, the “Will's Creation of new Universe Theory.”

Here, we borrow the three-universe hypothesis from the Multiverse Theory but make some adjustments to the setting.

The Rightside Up is Universe A, and the dark, barren chaotic universe where Vecna was sent is Universe X (same as in the first theory).

On November 6, 1983, when Will crossed over, his superpower activated, causing the two universes to overlap.

During the overlapping, between the white Universe A and the black Universe X, a gray middle area was created—a new interstice universe, which we’ll call it as Universe B.

It’s as if Universe A is a large cloud of hydrogen gas, and Universe X is a large cloud of oxygen gas,

Will is like a spark that triggers a hydrogen-oxygen explosion, forming a pool of water.

And this pool of water is Universe B, also known as the Upside Down.

Universe B combines features of both Universe A and Universe X, as it’s the product of their overlap.

Its appearance is that of Universe A’s Hawkins on November 6, 1983, but it’s enveloped and filled with dark matter from Universe X.

When Will was trying to communicate with his mother from his house, his superpower activated, causing Universe A and Universe X to further overlap, and the resulting changes were projected onto the walls of Will’s house in Universe B.

The Upside Down that the protagonists visited in Seasons 1 and 4 is Universe B, but they haven’t yet been to the source of the dark matter, Universe X.

Whether Will copy-pasted Hawkins from Universe A into Universe X or created a new Universe B based on the features of Universe A and Universe X, his extraordinary ability is undeniable, and it’s foreseeable that Will will play a crucial role in Season 5.

However, there’s still one unresolved issue with this theory that I can’t confirm. Who caused the two universes to overlap and created Universe B—Will or Eleven?

When discussing with other fans, a significant number of them believe that Eleven is the creator of Universe B.

In Season 1, when Eleven encountered the Demogorgon during her psychic experiments in Hawkins Lab, her powers went haywire in a panic, causing Universe A and Universe X to overlap, creating Universe B and opening the gate between Universe A and Universe B in the lab. This seems plausible too.

The day Eleven opened the gate and the day Will went missing were the same—November 6, 1983—so both of them could have created Universe B based on Hawkins from that day.

So, I can’t definitively determine who caused it. But personally, I think Will is more likely.

If it was Eleven, why didn’t the two universes overlap when she first opened the gate and sent Vecna to Universe X? Was it a coincidence, or is Eleven simply incapable of doing it?

If it was Eleven, how did Will, who doesn’t have this ability, see the words his mother wrote on the wall?

Although there are still many questions, I personally can’t answer them until Season 5 comes out.

These are the best theories I can come up with so far, and they’ve taken a ton of brainpower…

Even after all this, when Season 5 finally airs, I’ll probably get slapped in the face by the final truth.

Which theory do you think is more credible? Feel free to share your own theories!

This is all just my opinion :)

(any speculations for character deaths is not me wishing death on any of the characters)

SPOILER WARNING!!!

Most likely to die: ELEVEN

My evidence is since she opened the portal to the upside-down she's going to be the one who has to close it once and for all and that'll result in her demise

Least likely to die:

LUCAS- if he died it would play into the horror trope of Black characters in horror dying and I think the duffers are aware of that and won't do it. also I don't think there's a reason for him to die (same with erica)

MAX- I know this one is controversial, but I think they would have just killed her off last season but there's clearly a reason she was kept alive. I suspect she'll be the bridge between eleven and vecna to help out the crew

ROBIN: once again, she'll play into the horror trop of a minority dying and I think that there's not a real reason for her to die

HOPPER: he already had a death scare and at the end of season 3 we thought he was dead so I doubt they'll do that again

MKIE: just not likely

For the record: Due to the trailers for season 5 I'm not too confident in ms. wheeler surviving

Also something'll happen to Jhonathan... that nancy scene of her washing blood off of her hands was hinting at something with him I believe

I suspect they'll be other deaths besides eleven but nobody with super sound evidence, but I don't think the duffers will go crazy killing everyone off. I think maximum 4 major characters die

( I really really hope steve won't die)

EPISODE TITLES: (these are mostly just some random thoughts between context clues, previous seasons, and the season 5 trailers)

THE CRAWL:

• I don't really have too much to go off of here

• Prehaps the vines?

• Crawling through something??

THE VANISHING OF _____:

• For sure a callback to episode 1 of season 1

• I think it's holly like others since she's about the same age as will was when he first went missing

• She might get trapped in the upside-down?

THE TURNBOW TRAP:

• Something to do with the turnbow billboard thing we've seen in a previous season (I belive season 4)

• I believe that's the last name of that kid in the rainbow sweater seen with mike in the barn

SORCEROR:

• Referring to vecna? unsure since nobody has been labeled as that so far I don't think

SHOCK JOCK:

I have two ideas-

• Either could refer to something to do with lucas (since he fell in with the jock crowd in high school) possibly related to some of the hospital scenes in the trailer? I doubt that last point tho

Or

• Could be related to the radio broadcaster/dj thing (like turnbow?)

Since ST likes to do a lot of title wordplay I'm not 100 %

ESCAPE FROM CAMAZOTS:

• Could be a DND reference for bats hinting at an Eddie revival but I highly doubt that sadly :(

• Or could be a God of death ref- escaping from vecna of some other evil being?

THE BRIDGE:

• Referencing the connection between the upside-down and the rightside up

• Elelven being the bridge?

• Or about the rifts in hawkins?

THE RIGHTSIDE UP:

Endgame!!! who knows what'll happen lol

DEATH SCARES: (based on what seems likely, but I'm just making some guesses)

• Dustin

• Steve

• Joyce

• Will

Unrelated but- BRENNER IS NOT COMING BACK I SWEAR TO GOD NOT AGAIN

SHIPS:

I would like to note I'm not really into the bigger part of the shipping culture of this fandom but I have a few theories

• Mike and will will NOT be cannon. will might confess to mike knowing full well that mike doesn't share his feelings

• Something will happen between steve and nancy but I think that in the end Nancy and Johnethan will be endgame

• Prehaps something between vickey and robin

Overall relationships won't really be the focus of this season, much like all the seasons.

For now this is all I have, I hope you enjoyed reading!! if you disagree with anything I have to say that's all good

Feel free to correct me if I have any misinformation in here and I hope you all will share your own theories with me :D

I will be doing an analysis on the trailers individually hopefully soon so I'll be posing that in the coming weeks

If the thessalhydra is going to be in season 5 then i feel like sorcerer would be the perfect episode to introduce it because it’s name is connected to d&d because it is referencing will’s d&d character, will the wise and the thessalhydra is from d&d like all of the other monsters. Also it is the end of volume 1 which would be the perfect time for a twist or a new monster. Anyways that’s just my opinion so let me know what yours are 🤔

I'm not really sure if the picture is clear but in it you can see a person unconscious. Me (and other people of twitter) have speculated that it is Will Byers as the white shoes seem to be identical to his BTS pictures from a few months ago.... You can also faintly see another person next to him which is probably Joyce.

In the yellow circle, you can see Derek appearing to be 'floating' in the air. His last name is revealed to be Turnbow and the name of the third episode is "The Turnbow Trap". Do you think that Vecna will use Derek as a distraction/use him to threaten the group??

In the blue circle, I don't know if it's just me but it appears as Will Byers is possessed and is in one of Vecna's visions. His body seems still, his hands fall flat and he seems to be looking straight ahead/ slightly up. Maybe he's possesed and maybe was forced by Vecna to make Derek float?? We already have some leaks that Vecna will try and team up with Will this season so it's not unlikely.

I personally also think that the starting clip of the teaser is a scene in which Will comes out in. I think that Joyce is trying to comfort Will by reminding him about how worried she was when he went missing, and that she will love him no matter what. It's kind of a parallel to Jonathan's speech in S4. Will is 99% going to get atleast a coming out scene this season.... (if not the show is going to get even more accusations of queer-baiting)....

MY OPINION ON THE TEASER-

It really built up the stage for S5... especially Noah's screams of "RUN". I've seen people hating on Noah for his acting (and while I don't support his actions as a person) his acting was phenomenal !! I just think that the angle was weird imo.

I think it's kind of clear that 11 is going to be separated from the core 4 for atleast a few episodes this season. Was it just me, or was like the lighting different compared to the first 4 seasons?? I guess it's more dark and melancholy?? Anyways... as a Will Byers stan I was happy with the trailer :))

So... what are your theories and thoughts on the teaser of Season 5?? I would love to hear them in the comments !!

Is it just me or does that CLEARLY seem like the demobats are involved with this because camazotz is a monster that is very batlike so that would make sense

Alex Breaux is an American actor who plays Dr. Brenner in the original Broadway cast of Stranger Things: The First Shadow. He also has a yet-to-be-disclosed role in the fifth and final season of Stranger Things.[1]

What could be the reason to have the same actor in S5, unless its for the same role. So flashbacks of Henry with Brenner, the scenes which were not adopted in the play.

If you're going off solely Season IV, it puts Vecna/Henry as the main antagonist and the Mind Flayer being the greater antagonistic force turned weapon by Vecna/Henry, but the First Shadow's release, it seemed to have flipped, with Henry/Vecna being secondary antagonist and the mind flayer being the main but later comments by the duffer brothers clarified that HENRY was the main antagonist of the show?

How do y'all think it works?

My current theory more or less is that it's a mix- the Mind Flayer's predecessor from Dimension X is what gave Henry his powers, but it was Henry, and his own emotions that created the Mind Flayer that we see in the show- meaning Henry/Vecna IS the main antagonist, while the mind flayer is the overarching antagonistic force, but otherwise secondary antagonist due to being more of a persona of Henry/Vecna.

So you guys have probably already heard this theory but here it is anyway. Mrs. Kelly has a key shaped necklace that looks like a clock. And there is a lock on vecnas clock. Although there are many theories about this just wanted to mention that usually when you open a grandfather clock like that, you open it like that to change the time on the clock. Could this be hinting at time travel? And why does Mrs. Kelly have it? Thoughts?

Good afternoon, I'm watching S.T. s4. The place where the basketball players "live" looks like an abandoned restaurant... Is it the same burger joint we saw in the first season where Eleven eats chips and hamburgers? . It could make sense, right? The owner died and the place was abandoned and at the mercy of vandals.

Buenas tardes estoy viendo S.T. s4.

El local en donde "viven" los jugadores de baloncesto que tiene pinta de un restaurante abandonado...... Se trata de la misma hamburguesería que vimos en la primera temporada en donde Once come patatas y hamburguesas? .

Podría tener su lógica,no?

El dueño murió y el local quedó abandonado y a la merced de los vándalos.

In Season 5, the gang will fight Vecna, Demogorgons/dogs, bats, and the Mind Flayer. As well as a new monster, the Thesselhydra. They've foreshadowed it since the first dungeons and dragons scene, and in S4 when Nancy is describing the vision from Vecna, she describes a new monster with a gaping mouth. If you look up images of a Thesselhydra, its exactly that.

We all know Season 5 is gonna be about Will and his journey, with flashbacks about his time in the upside down. We know this from the BTS photos. I have a theory regarding unreleased footage dating all the way back to S1 E1. If you go back and look at the still images that go with the episodes on Netflix (Tv not smart phone) they all include actual shots that are included in that episode, every one EXCEPT S1E1. When will is running away from the Demogorgon he just runs straight to the shed and slams the door behind him, he then waits for it to arrive with a shotgun. In the still image, he is standing outside it observing the glowing light from the shed in what seems like a calm manner. I believe this may be after he vanished along with the Demogorgon, and I think Vecna is subjecting him to a vision.

The fact that Henry is called Peter at the lab and when the military raided Dr. Owen's house, his wife says "why are you taking Peter's things" so clearly there's a connection there. Do you think that Dr. Owen's took him in to help him and the Dr. Brenner saw the power he had and took him?? Is Dr. Owen's going to be a key in saving Hawkins?? ALSO the time jump.... when Henry is showing Nancy the flashbacks when he was young living in the creel house, he made the clock go back...... if Ellle has similar powers is it plausible that she's going to turn the time back to reverse everything that happened?? 🤔